Wednesday, June 1, 2016

Just Skip the Beginning

There are times in life when we just want to get to the good stuff.  Sometimes, we eat dessert before dinner.  Sometimes we rush people through their conversations to get to the meat.  Sometimes we are not interested in the details because they may get in the way of our conscience.  Or, they may remind us of some uncomfortable truth that turns our ideas on their heads.  For instance, if I found a million dollars on the side of the road, I have two choices.  I could say I have no idea where it came from and keep it or recognize that it came from somewhere, it's not mine and therefore I should seek out the owner.  If I dismiss the fact that it's not mine that gives me a clear conscience to keep it.  Who cares about the details of where it came from?  I am only interested in spending it.  The origin of the million dollars is just as important as my possession of it.  I know it did not simply materialize out of thin air and I know it belonged to someone else before I found it on the side of the road. 

In a debate with a Darwinist, this is the exact dilemma that they face when they begin discussing evolution.  They want to discuss diversity without considering origins.  Darwinism stems from Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.  The theory of evolution at its core states that every living species is derived from the same common ancestor, a single celled organism.  Natural selection is another Darwinian concept that says that extant species genetically develop specific traits and characteristics that allow them to survive in their environments.  These traits are developed by mutations in the genes of a given organism. 

According to those who support evolution, they say that it has nothing to do with origins.  That is another subject, a totally different area of study known as abiogenesis.  They contend that you can skip the beginning and go directly to discussing the diversity and complexity of life and that evolution allows us to explain this diversity.  Here is a gaping hole in evolutionary theory.  How can we skip the beginning?  Doesn't it matter where the species that we are describing came from?  Apparently not. 

Many also argue that evolution itself is not random. I beg to differ.  Absent a creator, the origin of all species had to occur randomly.  If the belief among evolutionists is that there is no God and therefore nothing to guide the process, then how else do we classify it?  Further, if abiogenesis is really how the first organism came into being, then that would mean that every organism randomly evolved from that first organism before natural selection could ever occur. 

How is this random?  If abiogenesis is how the first organism came into existence then the chemicals that made that organism up had to have randomly combined to even form one amino acid let alone the proteins or DNA which codes amino acids for proteins.  Sure, the chemical elements can be found on asteroids and meteors but amino acids aren't nor are proteins.  The elements are there but the parts are not assembled.  If there is no assembler, then how else, other than random, do we classify the process of the elements becoming molecules with specific bonding and structures?  Not to mention, where did the life of the first organism come from?  There is no evidence of life evolving from non-living material, anywhere.  Scientists have tried to duplicate/simulate conditions and only got a few amino acids; hardly a living being or even a bacterium (Prebiotic Chemicals?).  Glycine found on a comet (Rosetta Comet) won't cut it when we have to answer the fundamental question of where life begins or how extremely complex and purposeful molecules are derived through random collisions of atoms.  To have the ingredients for life but no life is not enough.  I cannot put the ingredients for five star meal in my kitchen, blow the kitchen up and expect that a desirous meal would come from that process!  Unguided processes are random.  Point blank.  The lottery is a random process- unless it's rigged.  The probabilities for winning are extremely low which is why you see 2-3 winners out of millions of players.

If this random process of making amino acids, proteins, peptides or even DNA, which is a totally different type of chemical from proteins, was successful, now that single celled organism would have to become every single species on the planet.  This would necessitate inter-species evolution i.e. one organism becoming something totally other than itself!  How so?  How else could every species originate from one common organism?  Evolutionists say that this is an aberration and that this is not how evolution works.  However, in order to discuss how evolution (speciation and diversity) does work, we cannot dismiss this fact. 

The formation of different species from the original organism too must be random because there would be nothing guiding the genetic mutations necessary for the original organism to become some other organism.  That's to say there is nothing to tell the original organism what to become.  Random, unguided mutations is the language that even evolutionists use yet they contend that the process itself is not random.  Really?  Here is another hole, evolutionists will not dare say that multiple species occurred at the same time, but rather that they each evolved slowly over time; they also contend that from each of the new species, variations of that species were derived.

Is there microevolution i.e. can there be advantageous changes within a species?  Absolutely.  There is no denying the evidence that there were and still are different humans who walked the planet at the same time.  Every one of us came from somewhere.  I believe that we came from Adam's seed but that's another issue.  The fossil evidence is there to suggest that human beings have indeed changed over time.  So has our environment and our living conditions which, according to evolutionists, have everything to do with evolution. 

But  Is it possible from one species to become another?  I don't think so and this has not been proven experimentally, ever.    But this is precisely what had to have happened in order for the diverse array of species that we currently see to exist, if evolution is taken to its logical conclusion.  There is debate over the whole man from ape theory as well as the common ancestor between men and apes.  Apes have 48 pairs of chromosomes  and humans have 46 pairs.  The debate rages over whether or not telomeres were somehow (no real explanation) fused together which evolutionists use to argue for how apes evolved into humans (Telomeres) and how the two chromosomes pairs are somehow missing from humans. There is no way around this unobserved inter-species evolution and this is where the Darwinian concept breaks down in the eyes of many scientists (for arguments against the theory of evolution, see "Icons of Evolution by Johnathan Wells" "I don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek" "Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe" or "Signature in the Cell b Stephen C. Meyer"). 

We can't just skip over the beginning and not have an answer for it.  That presents a major challenge for Darwinists but according to them, the origins don't matter.  We can indeed skip the beginning and start discussing diversity.  How is that possible when there is a 400lb gorilla in the room screaming "where did all life come from in the first place?"

There is an answer.  He is an inconvenient truth and a thorn in the side of many who do not agree that there is a creator.  God created everything that we see.  While many do not accept this or claim that He is a bigger mystery than evolution, He is indeed a knowable mystery.  He cannot be studied empirically in a lab, he cannot be proven using science but He can definitely be experienced.  He also left His calling card throughout this orderly universe.  He gave the species the ability to adapt.  He designed the genetic switches that allow DNA to code for different proteins within a particular species.  He made human beings in His image, not from apes.  He made each animal, bird, creeping thing etc. after its own kind.  That those things are able to "evolve" is no mystery and that's something I do not disagree with.  But to say that without answering or even entertaining the vital question of where they came from is quite disingenuous.  The impossibility of a random unguided process leading to the vast array of complex organisms, humanity with all of its own complexities and don't forget our intellectual complexity and everything else that we see is mind-boggling.  It takes a lot more faith to believe in an unguided random process than it does to believe that God created everything in my humble opinion.  But, we don't need those details getting in the way of our theories, now do we? 

22 comments:

  1. (part 2/3)
    Paragraph 6:
    This is a very strange passage. You describe the first living organisms as being the universal ancestors of all modern life forms. To the best of my knowledge, we do not know whether the first living organisms were the universal common ancestors, but evolutionary biology predicts that one life form indeed played that role at some point. I'm at a loss as to why you claim biologists (side note: the term evolutionist doesn't represent a scientific area of expertise, it is a useless word creation) think this is an aberration.

    Paragraph 7:
    This mostly reproduces the same arguments as paragraph 4. As stated above, these do not correspond to the theory of evolution. The processes are not random. They are not guided by a supernatural being, but mutations are selected for in terms of their ability to provide a reproductive advantage. Organisms that reproduce efficiently, thrive. Those who don't, disappear. Finally, what you refer to as “another hole” is really not an intelligible argument to me. Of course several species existed and evolved during any given period. I don't know why you (wrongly) set this up as a problem for evolutionary biology.

    Paragraph 8:
    I am happy to read that you acknowledge the change of allele frequencies in populations over time.

    Paragraph 9:
    You are right, speciation (this is the appearance of a new species by the accumulation of genetic changes) is a key concept of the theory of evolution. Whether you (or I) think this has happened doesn't matter. Your claim that this has not been observed is wrong. Speciation has been observed directly and many examples have been described in the scientific literature. I find it quite puzzling that you deliberately keep this information from your readers. You might simply be unaware of this very large body of work, in which case I would like to point you towards this well written and well documented article: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html Further onwards you give a very erroneous overview of “ape” and human genetics. Let me remind you that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, not 46 as you claim. Your knowledge of genetics seems very superficial, as is your knowledge of chromosome fusion (this is very well studied, see for example http://www.pnas.org/content/88/20/9051.short). I'm also quite at a loss as to why you cite books that, like yourself, refuse to acknowledge the existence of hundreds of observed speciation events. As a professional scientist, you should be more independent and capable of using bibliographic search engines. Once you look at the original sources, you will realise that people like S. C. Meyer are lying with respect to the absence of observations.

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    1. (Part 3/3)
      Paragraph 10:
      I have to admit, at this stage, I don't follow the logic of your post anymore. After your erroneous discussion of speciation, you suddenly jump back to the origin of life question. However, you do not provide any new elements, so my comments on paragraph 2 apply here too.

      Paragraph 11:
      The last section is a pure statement of faith, which should not require comment. However, you do introduce one major falsehood: the question of the existence of a deity is not a thorn in the side of evolutionary biology (nor of any other area of science). You present a concept of a deity that completely escapes rational thought and scientific experimentation. To me personally, this is a fallacious strategy, because the way you define your deity makes it impossible to disprove its existence. However, science does not care about the existence of supernatural beings. What it does very nicely though, is show how life functions without any intervention by a supernatural entity. Life came about, thrived and evolved without the slightest sign of guidance by a deity. In fact, all we have ever observed shows no discernible trace of a god. And I think at this stage it is not worth repeating that your “impossibility of random processes” argument does not apply to a process like evolution, which is inherently non-random (the same holds true for prebiotic chemistry).

      Conclusion:
      Your post is factually wrong on almost all scientific aspects. Furthermore, it misleads the reader into thinking that speciation event have never been observed. This is of course not true. As a colleague, I recommend you behave like the trained scientist that you are and consult primary sources that are available to you via your university's library instead of blindly following poorly documented books like those of Meyer and Wells. If you disagree with the published science, you should refute it rationally, and not claim it doesn't exist in the hope that nobody will notice your omissions.
      Finally, be aware of the fact that science does not try to tell you whether you should believe in supernatural beings or not. They are simply not part of the equation. I am well placed to know that one can possess theistic faith and accept science. One cannot, however, dismiss observable and proven science in the hope of making one's supernatural claims sound more plausible. That is dishonest.

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    2. The error on the number of chromosomes was just that. 23 pairs is 46. I will edit it to reflect that. Thank you.

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    3. There are many many more papers published over the last 5 decades, with very good information on how aminoacids, purine and pyrimidine bases and ribose form under prebiotic conditions. Scifinder or a similar search engine will help you locate dozens of papers in that area.

      The fact that synthetic chemists plan reactions and set them up on purpose is hardly a contradiction of the fact that a prebiotic earth contained simple molecules like hydrogen cycanide which easily forms adenine, or formaldehyde which easily forms ribose. There was no foresight needed for HCN to form from earth's constituents. There is no foresight needed for it to oligomerise to form adenine.

      I take no pleasure from uncivilised debate. If both sides argue honestly and without provocation, unpleasantness is evitable.

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  2. Paragraph 6:
    This is a very strange passage. You describe the first living organisms as being the universal ancestors of all modern life forms. To the best of my knowledge, we do not know whether the first living organisms were the universal common ancestors, but evolutionary biology predicts that one life form indeed played that role at some point. I'm at a loss as to why you claim biologists (side note: the term evolutionist doesn't represent a scientific area of expertise, it is a useless word creation) think this is an aberration.

    Paragraph 7:
    This mostly reproduces the same arguments as paragraph 4. As stated above, these do not correspond to the theory of evolution. The processes are not random. They are not guided by a supernatural being, but mutations are selected for in terms of their ability to provide a reproductive advantage. Organisms that reproduce efficiently, thrive. Those who don't, disappear. Finally, what you refer to as “another hole” is really not an intelligible argument to me. Of course several species existed and evolved during any given period. I don't know why you (wrongly) set this up as a problem for evolutionary biology.

    Paragraph 8:
    I am happy to read that you acknowledge the change of allele frequencies in populations over time.

    Paragraph 9:
    You are right, speciation (this is the appearance of a new species by the accumulation of genetic changes) is a key concept of the theory of evolution. Whether you (or I) think this has happened doesn't matter. Your claim that this has not been observed is wrong. Speciation has been observed directly and many examples have been described in the scientific literature. I find it quite puzzling that you deliberately keep this information from your readers. You might simply be unaware of this very large body of work, in which case I would like to point you towards this well written and well documented article: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html Further onwards you give a very erroneous overview of “ape” and human genetics. Let me remind you that humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, not 46 as you claim. Your knowledge of genetics seems very superficial, as is your knowledge of chromosome fusion (this is very well studied, see for example http://www.pnas.org/content/88/20/9051.short). I'm also quite at a loss as to why you cite books that, like yourself, refuse to acknowledge the existence of hundreds of observed speciation events. As a professional scientist, you should be more independent and capable of using bibliographic search engines. Once you look at the original sources, you will realise that people like S. C. Meyer are lying with respect to the absence of observations.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Albert, I unfortunately posted this twice. Feel free to remove it. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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    2. I am in no way deliberately misrepresenting the facts. That's something that I will not do to gaij traction for an argument. I was unable to locate one paper in particular by a Japanese group that tried to simulate prebiotic conditions but I could not locate it. If molecules do not need to be assembled, why do synthetic chemists like myself spend countless hours constructing natural products? I beg to differ. Complex molecules that are meaningful absolutely must be constructed. You will never find a synthetic chemists dumping compounds into a flask and crossing their fingers. A 96 well plate for a combimatorial assay? Maybe but there is great foresight that goes into that. My perspective is that the complexity and order of the universe did not just happen. Sure, you will disagree and I will respect your right to disagree. Thank you for your perspective and for your cordiality. These debates/disagreements do not have to be nasty. I protected my tweets because I refuse to have every atheist and Darwinists hurling swear words and insults on my feed. I don't tolerate disrespect not do I have the time or energy to respond to potshots from every bloke on the planet. Thanks again.

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    3. The fact that synthetic chemists deliberately set up reactions has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of life. Instead, the way you describe it, clearly shows that you have fallen victim to teleological thinking. The fact that a reaction works when a chemist sets it up means that it will also work when the reagents are present without a chemist placing them there.

      The fact that you couldn't locate a given paper by whomever doesn't excuse the fact that you completely ignore dozens of other papers that have been published on the subject. Why not do some serious reading up? You will notice there are mountains of very elegant approaches that have been applied to the origin of life probles. Sugars, nuceopbases, lipids, aminoacids,... they have all been shown to be obtainable under prebiotic conditions.

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  3. (Part 1/3)
    Hi Albert,

    As I promised a few days ago, I'm getting back to you regarding this post. As a colleague and fellow scientist, I must admit your misrepresentation of Darwinian evolution left me speechless. Please find my commentary and suggestions paragraph per paragraph below.

    Paragraph 1:
    This is irrelevant to our discussion. I find the metaphor rather dubious, and I think your post would be better off without it. I suggest you apply the ‘Dunitz rule’
    (named after Jack Dunitz, whom you certainly know) which says that in almost any scientific paper you can cross out
    the first sentence. After this is done, of course, there is another
    first sentence...

    Paragraph 2:
    You are representing a false dichotomy. It is not about what evolutionary biologists want, but about the fact that the evolution of living organisms can be described regardless of the origin of life. As a chemist, you might be receptive to the following anaolgy: it is possible to describe chemical reactions accurately without describing the origin of element. In the same way, it is possible to describe the change of allele frequencies over time in a population without describing how the first living organisms appeared.

    Paragraph 3:
    As stated in the previous paragraph, the evolution of living organism can be (and has been) accurately described without the need to take their origin into account. These are indeed separate research topics, like nucleosynthesis and chemistry, and their relationship is historical: one must have taken place for the other to occur subsequently. This does not in any way constitute a hole withing the framework of evolutionary biology.

    Paragraph 4:
    Not many, but all evolutionary biologist will tell you that evolution is not random. In a first approximation, one can consider mutational events in DNA to be random (even though different types of mutations do not occur with the same probability), but the resulting changes in an organism are subjected to natural selection. Thus only organism whose newest mutation provides them with a reproductive advantage over non-mutated populations will thrive. In other words, only organisms that are able to successfully fill an ecological niche will give rise to stable populations over time. (Let's not discuss neutral mutations, they are not providing us with any helpful elements of reasoning here.) As you can see, the changes in organisms explained by evolution are anything but randon, regardless of whether supernatural beings exists or not.

    Paragraph 5:
    This paragraph shocked me the most, taking into account that it was written by a fellow chemist. We both know that chemical reactions are not radom processes. They are controlled by kinetics and thermodynamics. They can be accurately described, thoroughly analysed and correctly predicted. They can also be experimentally tested and validated. The formation of aminoacids for example, is highly predictable under prebiotic conditions, and I'm sure you know that numerous examples have been described and tested by our past and present colleagues. Molecules react without outside influence. They do not need to be assembled in a mechanical way. All they require is to be present. Furthermore, you present (I hope not deliberately) only a couple of experiments and findings. For example, we both know that experiments similar to the Miller-Urey experiment have since been conducted under more plausible conditions, and that many more aminoacids have been found in a number of stellar object, for example the Murchinson meteorite. It is highly misleading to give your readers the impression that we know so little. Finally, I hope you also realise that the analogies you present here are highly fallacious. The image of exploding kitchens and lotteries have little in common with chemical processes guided by the thermodynamics and kinetics of covalent and non-covalent interactions.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. A reaction where random chemicals are colliding is totally random and you know it. Yes, kinetics and thermodynamica are guiding processed but they do not choose the reagents. We cannot play semantical games about what random means. Reactions in a laboratory setting i.e. a controlled one are guided by a chemist. For the sake of argument, because I do not believe that everything came from ooze, any reaction without a chemist to control what reacts with what is random. Period. Yes, we agree that more amino acids may have been formed but NO LIFE from those reactions and definitely no proteins. That is beyond probability and you and I both know that.

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    2. The changes in organisms are random because the genetic mutations are random. Darwin's evolution is totally unguided. How is that not random and why do you propose it takes a billion years to get it right?

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    3. As for your refutation of paragraph 1, my question stands because evolution deals with all life on the planet...everything. This is not a reaction in a flask where we can certainly rule out what chemical distributor we bought the chemicals from but to postulate that ALL life began in a primordial soup with no explanation of how the slightest iota of genetic information got into the soup or where the first organism came from seems rather suspicious to me. I cannot fathom that molecule like DNA randomly came together not just for that one organism but for every living thing on the planet! The probability of that happening by chance is very small. A.E. Taylor posits a number somewhere in the range of 1 in 1000^1,000,000! No matter how much time passed those odds are staggering.

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    4. I beleive that the dichotomy exists within the field of evolution itself. Darwin proposed that all life sprang from one source. Modern evolutionists are seemingly distancing themselves frok Darwin saying that evolution is a way to describe speciation etc. I realize that if we take Darwin's theory to its natural conclusion that there is no way to begin to explain the human mind, the will, intellect, emotions and all of the other metaphysical properties that humans possess. Are we just globs of cells with no meaning? I beg to differ. Life does indeed have meaning. Your passion for this debate means something to you and my passion means something to me. You are rational and highly intelligent. Where does that intelligence come from? According to Darwin's theory it is inherited. Furthermore, it is Darwinism that has lent support to tyrants like Adolph Hitler who used the idea of a genetically superior race to subjugate the Jews.

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    5. In reaponse to paragraph 4, I totally understand your point but my question remains, what drives the genetic mutations? Survival cannot be used as a justification because the mutations are basically trial and error. There is really no other way to describe them. Natural selection is a model. I do realize that evolution within species occurs and is still occurring. The data bears that out but again, taken to its core, how did the first organism somehow become every organism? Regardless of where it came from. If you don't know the origin then every theory of origins is plausible.

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    6. I will comment further when I have the time. Right now let me just point out the terrible Hitler fallacy that you're using here. This is a very common creationist argument. I suspect you picked that up on a website and didn't factcheck it.
      1) Fundementally speaking, one individual's actions are totally unrelated to the scientific veracity of a theory (even more so if he's a raving psychopath).
      2) Hitler was a Christian, his doctrine was formulated in the name of Christianity, his soldies wore "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belts, atheists were to be executed and annihilated, and Darwin's books were prohibited and burned. Please consult historical sources, they will confirm all of the above.
      3) This gives me the impression that you don't apply critical thinking to highly dubious sources, probably because you want their theses to be true. As a scientist, you should question your sources, look up primary sources, apply the highest standards of critical thinking. You work in a university, so I'm so you have very easy access to primary research in chemistry, biology but also history. Try not to go the easy way and discard reality just because doing so gives you the illusion that things are the way you want them to be.

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    7. At to the Hitler fallacy, Hitler was not a Christian. Christians do not murder people in cold blood. The Bible specifically tells is in Galatians 3 that there is no division in Christ, we are all one. Just because someone says "God is with me" does not mean that is the case.

      As to our actions, isn't the concept of determinism rooted in evolutionary theory?

      I do apply critical thinking which is why I have so many questions regarding evolution, the social ramifications of evolution and the lack of information on origins. I know exactly how to trace sources back to their origin and how to look for primary sources. The fact is, I am not the only scientist with these questions. There are scores of chemists, biochemists, biologists, physicists and others who have questions about evolution. Not necessarily the "slow descent and change over time" but how the entire theory posits some points that are more conjecture than fact. I ever take the easy route. Because we disagree does not make my point any less valid. Let me end here because I have a lot of work to do. THe end of Darwinism is determinism. Everything is in our genes and there is nothing that we can do about it if we take Darwinism to it's logical conclusion. Again, than you for your feedback. Have a wonderful day.

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    8. All you have written above sounds frighteningly alike the nonsense that is usually spread by creationist websites. That makes me think that for some reason, you chose not to consult primary sources for that particular part of science that deals with the origin of life. I suspect this is because you dislike the conclusions. That, however, does not excuse the fact that you apply double standards.
      A few short comments:
      1) You use irrelevant probabilities. Of course neither nucleic acids nor proteins spontaneously assembled with all their contemporary functions. A whole contemporary cell even less so. These probabilities have nothing to do with the origin of life.
      2) Reactions are still not random when you know the starting materials. Stop trying to avoid this fact.
      3) Mutations are random, but only viable ones survive. It's indeed trial and error, and successul changes are conserved. It's very straightforward actually. And that's what guides evolution.
      4) Darwin proposed all life was derived from a common ancestor. Modern biology still says the same. None of these make any hypotheses about the origin of that common ancestor. Prebiotic chemistry and abiogenesis deal with that. End of story.
      5) Hitler was a Christian (you should read "Mein Kampf"), developed his doctrine in the name of christianity, and persecuted atheists. Historical fact. Denying it is denying history. Live with it.
      6) The question of how human intelligence works is irrelevant to the origin of life. (There is however a great deal of good work on that too. You need to read more primary sources.)

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  4. We will agree to disagree. I don't have the time or the energy to continue with you. You're not going to change my mind and I am not going to try and change yours. I appreciate your feedback and I respect your opinions. Have a blessed evening.

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    1. Your last reply is very disappointing, since the issues I raise are not matters of opinion, but of scientific facts. This means you admit that nothing can change your mind, even if you're shown to be blatantly wrong. This is very regrettable behaviour from somebody with a scientific training and an academic position. Fact-based debates should be something you relish, not avoid.

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  5. I am not avoiding anything. We have been at this for two weeks. I presented my facts, you say my sources are not credible. You cited dubious and debated sources yourself yet claim superiority. I admit that microevolution is possible. You continue to tell me origina don't matter. My argument is clear, you cannot just ignore the beginning. You tell me it doesn't matter. I have an ill wife. I don't have the time to continually refute you when I have already laid out my position. As for Hitler, he is not a Christian. Maybe in name but not in deed. God does not want to kill atheists, He wants to convert them. Most if the most noted atheists, even Bertrand Russell, privately admitted that there had to be something higher but refused to admit it publicly. I am not conceding ans you are right, my mind is made up because there is just as much evidence for my position as there is for yours. That's why I am holding my position, not because I am blind to facts. Good day.

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  7. I am not avoiding anything. We have been at this for two weeks. I presented my facts, you say my sources are not credible. You cited dubious and debated sources yourself yet claim superiority. I admitted vert early on that microevolution is possible. You continue to tell me origina don't matter. My argument is clear, you cannot just ignore the beginning. You tell me it doesn't matter. I have an ill wife. I don't have the time to continually refute you when I have already laid out my position. As for Hitler, he is not a Christian. Maybe in name but not in deed. God does not want to kill atheists, He wants to save them. Most of the most noted atheists, even Bertrand Russell, privately admitted that there had to be something higher but refused to admit it publicly. I am not conceding ans you are right, my mind is made up because there is just as much evidence for my position as there is for yours. That's why I am holding my position, not because I am blind to facts. Good day.

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